VVT tuning and cams

[Celicasaur]

I'm guessing that I won't get much more info other than "Dadsc63 ran MHP cams and had a custom tune" but I'll at least ask...

MHP/Kleemann cams. Are they especially difficult to tune for? If so, why? I've had Kleemann cams fitted to my engine (full thread and dyno to come tomorrow hopefully) but the tuner has struggled and the car has barely made 490hp (crank) peak, although the area under the curve is strong apparently and so the mid-range is very juicy.

Yes I know each dyno reads different, but this particular dyno tends to show stock cars at around their respective stock figures and loads of M156 cars go there and have had typical numbers shown for the mods. It's a pity that a baseline run wasn't taken before the Kleemann cams were fitted. Otherwise that could have solved a lot of detective work in the aftermath. What I can tell you though (and I stand to be corrected, as this could have been an error in translation over the telephone) is that the car made 480hp with the cams on the stock ecu and although it was running slightly lean, it ran just fine with the cams. With the tune, I'm not sure on the exact details, but I know it's not even hit 500hp yet.

Now, I'm from the JDM scene with loads of experience in tuning the 2ZZ-GE and K20A motors. Granted they only have VVT on the intake cam and I suppose there are additional complexities in tuning both cam shafts, but is it really that hard to tune these engines to make power with a set of beefy cams?? Not to brag, but I could make a 95% near perfect map (full throttle, not partial and low rpm etc) in around 2 hours...

So yeah...going back to my original point. Is it really that hard to tune VVT on these engines? Or is something not right on my car - if so, what is it??

FYI Car is stock 2010 E63 with 80k on the clock.

[ecampbell]

Who is putting the tune on your car now?

[Celicasaur]

Sorry, only just saw your reply now.

It was tuned by a Eurocharged franchise in London, although I believe Jerry had some input into the tune also. That's what the guy at the workshop told me.

I'm debating now whether it's worth risking wasting money on a new set of cam adjusters in case my existing ones aren't working as they should, or if I should invest in a Kleemann tune. I spoke to the guy at Kleemann and he insisted that his tune is a very thorough one, but at the same time, I would like to believe that a custom tune is the best way to go...but I don't know if I trust anybody from the UK now unless they are willing to pit their tuning skills against a money-back-guarantee if they can't make a difference. Tunes here are very expensive (nearly $1500USD) and on the basis that I've already got a 'tune' it would be painful to pay that much and not gain the power that it should make.

Kleemann suggested that I invest in new MAF's also though. He said that as the sensitivity of the MAF drops, the ecu will use the wrong load cells for the map. Now while I do agree with this, surely if I had a 'custom' tune, regardless of the MAF reading, the tune would essentially rewrite the settings for the 'wrong' load cells and I'd essentially have a tune that would run really bad with a brand new MAF. That's how I have understood and experienced tuning on Japanese cars on the Apexi Power FC ecu....while I understand that the MB ecu is different, I'm wondering if there are any similarities in this case.

[ecampbell]

Lots of unknowns here but...

1. Did you buy the cams from Eurocharged or did you buy from Kleeman and have Eurocharged install?
2. Eurocharged are a reputable shop - did they tell you what sort of gains to expect with what work you have done on your car?
3. Your talking about MAF's and adjusters. I presume the engine/car was working fine before the cams?
4. Am I correct that your car is bone stock expect for cams (No head work, headers, intake modifications)?

Whose idea was it to install the cams? I ask as If you have no other modifications done to your car (see no. 4) I suspect that is part of your problem. As an example, when my car was supercharged it was putting out well over 800 RWHP on stock cams. While some may disagree, cams would be one of my last, not first mods. As an FYI, the throttle response using the Weistec SC is vastly superior to a NA engine.

Kleeman or Eurcharged should have some sort of literature showing gains for you to base your purchase decision on. Providing you have the recommended equipment they suggest to have with the cams, I would take them to task and say the cams do not put out what they say and have them rectify. If you purchased from Eurocharged, I would essentially have the same discussion.

[Sticky]

"Dadsc63 ran MHP cams and had a custom tune" but I'll at least ask...

Weistec is the one who made that tuning happen.

[Sticky]

spoke to the guy at Kleemann and he insisted that his tune is a very thorough one, but at the same time, I would like to believe that a custom tune is the best way to go...but I don't know if I trust anybody from the UK now unless they are willing to pit their tuning skills against a money-back-guarantee if they can't make a difference. Tunes here are very expensive (nearly $1500USD) and on the basis that I've already got a 'tune' it would be painful to pay that much and not gain the power that it should make.

A custom tune is pretty much always the way to go.

Kleemann suggested that I invest in new MAF's also though. He said that as the sensitivity of the MAF drops, the ecu will use the wrong load cells for the map. Now while I do agree with this, surely if I had a 'custom' tune, regardless of the MAF reading, the tune would essentially rewrite the settings for the 'wrong' load cells and I'd essentially have a tune that would run really bad with a brand new MAF. That's how I have understood and experienced tuning on Japanese cars on the Apexi Power FC ecu....while I understand that the MB ecu is different, I'm wondering if there are any similarities in this case.

I think your logic is sound here.

Basically, what you need to lay out is what mods you intend to run and on what fuel.

Considering the difficulty in tuning aftermarket cams and how few have had success you might be better off just getting some boost...

[Sticky]

As an FYI, the throttle response using the Weistec SC is vastly superior to a NA engine.

I don't know about vastly superior. However, a twin screw always makes boost so that torque hit is almost instant.

[Celicasaur]

Lots of unknowns here but...

1. Did you buy the cams from Eurocharged or did you buy from Kleeman and have Eurocharged install?
2. Eurocharged are a reputable shop - did they tell you what sort of gains to expect with what work you have done on your car?
3. Your talking about MAF's and adjusters. I presume the engine/car was working fine before the cams?
4. Am I correct that your car is bone stock expect for cams (No head work, headers, intake modifications)?

Whose idea was it to install the cams? I ask as If you have no other modifications done to your car (see no. 4) I suspect that is part of your problem. As an example, when my car was supercharged it was putting out well over 800 RWHP on stock cams. While some may disagree, cams would be one of my last, not first mods. As an FYI, the throttle response using the Weistec SC is vastly superior to a NA engine.

Kleeman or Eurcharged should have some sort of literature showing gains for you to base your purchase decision on. Providing you have the recommended equipment they suggest to have with the cams, I would take them to task and say the cams do not put out what they say and have them rectify. If you purchased from Eurocharged, I would essentially have the same discussion.

I bought the cams via Eurocharged, ie my warranty made a contribution and I paid a lump sum also - Eurocharged dealt with the ordering process and did the installation. They were kind enough to offer a free tune because the whole process took excessively long for the simple process but eventhough this tune was apparently customised, it made only 8hp over the baseline run on the stock ecu.

Yeah before the cam install, the engine was running fine and pulled...well..about the same as it pulls now tbh. I had a sneaking suspicion that the car wasn't making factory power, but that claim will never be proven now.

Yep - car is bone stock apart from the cams.

Idea for the cams? Well, it was a joint one. They suggested it when we talking about replacing my stock cams (they were showing light signs of wear) and based off my friends review and 533hp on his C63 at their dyno last year (still has stock cat in place), i figured it would be a great upgrade.

Mr Kleemann said that 488hp is extremely poor and it should be around the 540-550hp range even with everything else being stock. He said the cams are very aggressive up top and make the bulk of their power above 5000rpm. He seems to think it's the tune and the possibility that my MAF's aren't utilising the tune properly, but at the same time if my tune was 'custom', surely the MAF argument isn't as strong then.

Weistec is the one who made that tuning happen.

I spoke to them already....in short. They can't help me due to the geographical distance. Fair play I suppose...

Considering the difficulty in tuning aftermarket cams and how few have had success you might be better off just getting some boost...

I'm sure I'll get there one day....it's just an expensive and PITA process to eliminate all of the variables as to the lack of power. Who knows though...it could be something as simple as a clogged pair of intake filters. I've got a UPD intake due to arrive next week - I'll see how that feels before changing the MAF's. If those don't work, then I'll try the Kleemann tune.

I have a pair of ceramic coated DPE headers on a plane to London also - but I won't fit them until I've explored all avenues in trying to work out where my lost power is at the minute. My final mod will be the Agency Power crank pulley, depending on how brave I'm feeling. Oh and I forgot. 82mm throttle bodies will be fitted before the headers are fitted, but of course after I've given up on looking for the missing power as things stand.

[Sticky]

I spoke to them already....in short. They can't help me due to the geographical distance. Fair play I suppose...

Sounds like you are in the UK?

Honestly, I don't know anyone other than Weistec who has a cam tune working. MHP failed (until Weistec bailed them out but that's a story for another day).

Kleemann hasn't really done anything of merit in a long time. I'd love to see them get this working though. By now, everyone should have cam tuning figured out with how long the M156 has been on the market.

[ecampbell]

I presume you have the first set of cams in the UK Eurocharged has sold? If not you should have them tune it properly rather than chasing ghosts.

[Celicasaur]

Yeah I'm in the UK. I'm the second person. As mentioned above, a friend of mine managed 40hp more on his C63 with the same mods (i'm sure the secondary cat delete would only have been worth a negligible amount). It's been done before, so it should be able to make power on my engine too.

I'm tossing up between OE Tuning or Kleemann now. Problem with the Kleemann tune is that it will be locked and won't be customised to my particular set up with the DPE headers (not yet fitted) etc. Hmmm....

Fair play I suppose. I was hoping that somebody would be able to shed some light on the VVT aspect of the tune and my questions around the maf sensors being potential culprits. I guess there's only one way to solve this issue and unfortunately for me, it's going to mean throwing money at it until it's sorted.

[ecampbell]

if you have just done cams, throw the old ones back on and see where it is at. i think i have a couple of sets somewhere.

[Sticky]

Problem with the Kleemann tune is that it will be locked and won't be customised to my particular set up with the DPE headers (not yet fitted) etc. Hmmm....

That's a big problem. If you can't even customize the tune or dyno tune what's the point? That isn't a good sign of Kleemann's abilities.

[Celicasaur]

if you have just done cams, throw the old ones back on and see where it is at. i think i have a couple of sets somewhere.

It's possible that I might do this later down the road. My old cams are still at Eurocharged, so I'll need to grab them at some point and find the service manual in order to swap them out myself.

That's a big problem. If you can't even customize the tune or dyno tune what's the point? That isn't a good sign of Kleemann's abilities.

I thin it's so that nobody else can steal their map, but at the same time yeah it's not ideal that it can't be fine-tuned to a particular set up. I enquired with OE Tuning last night to see what they can do for me. I'll keep you posted if I end up going with those guys.

[Sticky]

I enquired with OE Tuning last night to see what they can do for me. I'll keep you posted if I end up going with those guys.

OE Tuning is definitely more capable when it comes to custom tunes than Kleemann.

[ecampbell]

last comments.

Dude cut bait and get rid of the cams as you are chasing ghosts. Get Weistec's stage 1 and you will make more power than you could on the cams alone.

[Sticky]

last comments.

Dude cut bait and get rid of the cams as you are chasing ghosts. Get Weistec's stage 1 and you will make more power than you could on the cams alone.

Honestly, this makes the most sense. You will never look back.

[Celicasaur]

Hey guys,

I was randomly browsing this forum after a long time and came across this thread of mine from ages ago....I remember how sad and helpless I felt at the time, new in the MB world of BS and falsehoods from many people claiming to be experts and shutting me down when I was looking for help.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I was tirelessly trying to work out what was 'wrong' with my car for so long, until when I eventually heard that I could tune my car myself with the affordabe HP Tuners software. Finally, i would be able to tweak the cam timing to make the most of my cammed M156. The results speak for themselves below. I monstered the old Eurocharged tune by 40hp all over and cracked a genuine 500whp on a Dyno Dynamics (yes, not a Dynojet)




So to finally put this to bed - cams do work on the M156 and very well in fact. It's not the cams fault or the cars fault if the tuner doesn't do a good job of the tune up.