AMS warns of billet VR38DETT Nissan GTR engine block fraud - Knockoffs being sold?

[Sticky]

Hmm... what is going on here? AMS posted on their blog a warning regarding Nissan GTR billet engine blocks. They do not name any names but what they say is that poorly machined billet engine blocks are being sold to the public and AMS is making the public aware of this.

Is this a case of poor engine blocks? Is it that someone ripped off an AMS Performance block design? Is AMS trying to scare people into paying a premium for their products?

This is what AMS says:

We hoped that it would never come to this but sadly we are forced to make this post. Well over three years ago we sought out to develop a billet block for the GT-R. We could have simply copied the stock design and replicated it here in house, but with many areas open to be improved, we wanted to start with a fresh approach. After discussions with several companies we settled on a shop and struck up an exclusivity agreement. They had experience with billet blocks and were somewhat local so we thought we would be in good hands. The whole story is long and enough to make your head spin but we will try to shorten things up.

Over the three plus years working with this company, we failed to get them to produce a viable product. Hundreds of hours in testing and design data were sent to them trying to explain how to fix the multitude of mistakes and issues with the design and execution of this block. To this day, numerous issues still plague the project. We have invested over $100,000 in testing, time, research and material. In that time we received three EXTREMELY substandard versions which required a lot of welding, re-machining and re-engineering to even test. During our time working with this machine shop, we have had the chance to discuss our experiences with other people in the industry and found that our experiences were the norm rather than the exception. Empty promises, missed deadlines, longevity and resolution of future issues were also noted by others. Unfortunately this whole experience has left us with nothing we would feel comfortable selling let alone putting our name on.

Ok, so AMS apparently tried for three years with a certain a machine shop they do not name to produce a proper block but what was delivered did not meet their standards. AMS dropped this shop and went another route. So what is the problem?

Apparently the machine shop is going to move these billet blocks anyway. Now, if the blocks are bad you do not want to be taken advantage of. However, if the blocks are good and a good deal cheaper than AMS or other sources there definitely will be interest.

The block supposedly is being marketed as an AMS Block but AMS makes it clear this is not the block they use:

It has been brought to our attention that despite our exclusivity agreement, the company through the help of a GT-R owner, has been taking orders for this block on the side in an attempt to move product. It is being marketed as the “AMS billet block” which is not the case. This current design is not viable and is not something we would put our name on. The block is not even close to a representation of what we would sell.

Below are what AMS says are some of the problems with this block. They make a good case. However, there is also the possibility this issues have been resolved. Who knows what the truth is:

[subaru335i]

Sounds like something that would happen out of machine shop from China but "somewhat local" to AMS sounds like its someone in IL.
If I were in the market for a billet GTR block I would get it straight from AMS and not try to save a few bucks on a possible knockoff.
The stock VR38 block has proven to hold lots of power when built right so if you are going for billet block you are obviously pushing the envelope and I would imagine you would want every bit of support from AMS you could get.

[Jiaim]

This story seems much more complicated


http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/584...t-block-fraud/

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/583...ng-soon/page-1

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/586...ebunked/page-1

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

Seems like AMS is doing all it can stop the sale of the block outside of them. Every issue they point out is easily fixable in CAD with very little work, so it would seem to pose little problem.

[135pats]

It seems like a weird issue...There's a market for a 'budget'/knock off billet block?? Only people going billet are doing balls to the wall, 1500+ WHP race kar builds. Would think that those committed to doing that, would have the cash flow to do so right.

Weird.

[subaru335i]

From those links to the GTR forums it looks like Boostaddict member @Jimefam is right in the middle of it all.
Seems like he either owns or works for the shop in question.

[subaru335i]

Jimefam: Here you go. See that? They are different. This is not the "ams design" nor was it ever. They did their thing willall did theirs t1 getting one soon etc. Asier and i wanted billet blocks but they werent available yet so we got some done. If its made by the same shop frankly is irrelevant if the design is different. Hell everyone uses sonny bryant cranks with their own specs etc.

Seems like Jimefam and someone else wanted a billet block and contacted the same shop that AMS had talked to (possibly LSM in Detroit) and got a "different" billet block made.

[Sticky]

Seems like Jimefam and someone else wanted a billet block and contacted the same shop that AMS had talked to (possibly LSM in Detroit) and got a "different" billet block made.

So what is AMS' problem?

[subaru335i]

So what is AMS' problem?

Again this is Martin from AMS.
This will be the last post I make about this. The people wanting to sell this block.. do what you want.. the people wanting to buying it, do what you feel is right. I will state the facts and leave it at that. Did company X break the law? No. Did company X act unscrupulously? in my opinion and everyone I've talked to.. hell yes.

1. We approached company X on 9/6/2012 to make us a Nissan VR38 Billet engine block. We ship them all the parts they will need to design a block (stock block, internals, gaskets, etc). We are told it will take roughly 16 weeks.

2. We visit the company on 10/8/2012 and discuss the project further and bring with an Non-compete. We speak with owners son as he is in charge of the project and he says he doesn't want to sign anything and to get things complicated. He says that if anyone approaches them for a billet block he will just refer them to us or they will give a price to them that will steer them to us as they don't want to deal with end users. This was my decision, albeit not a smart one, to go ahead with this project and trust them on their word....lesson learned.

3. We communicate for the next 4 months going over design reviews that they are sending us, giving feedback, etc. We are shown pic of 3d rendering and are asked if we approve the design? How the hell can we approve it from that? We ask them for 3D cad so we can check measurements on our side. We are told no, they can't give that to us. So we ask for detailed pics of certain important features and dimensions so we can reviews. This process goes on a few times with a lot of our time invested in reviewing and approving or changing.

4. The year 2013 consists of very poor communication on part of Company X where they are not getting back to us for weeks at a time or sometimes over a month!! At one point we send an email questioning them what is going on and why is this taking 4-5 times longer than they promised? The owners son responds telling us to basically screw off.

5. I get involved with trying to contact the company and smooth things out. I call the company and the secretary tells me that Mr. X (owners son) is no longer there, great, let me talk to the owner. I look up the sons name online and find lawsuit with him as the defendant...promising news. I speak with the owner him and he says he's taking over. Things progress and communication is still horrible on their end (weeks go by with no response on their end). If we had a dollar for every time we were told... it's going in the machine next week to get made....

6. 2-4-2014 (1 year and almost 5 months after we were told 16 weeks) we get our first billet block sample (that we paid up front for 1 year 5 months ago). Upon first inspection and trying to bolt stuff up on an engine stand it's waaaay off. Some of the pics you see that we posted in our blog with bolt holes off, spacing off, incorrect surfaces. etc.. i mean we have folders of pictures, dimensions we had to check etc. We document all of this , pack up the block and send it back.

7. We spend the better part of 2014 waiting for company X to fix all the issues. Communication is again poor, we're told every time we call that they're not in, we leave numbers, messages, no avail. When we do hear back. it's 'oh a few more weeks, it's almost done". At this point this has taken so long what other choice do we have? we decide to wait. This goes on until mid NOVEMBER of 2014.. over 2 YEARS since they started the project.

8. 11-17-2014 we get the revised engine block back from them. The block is still not right! there are major issues with the design and machining. At this point we're not confident in Company X's abilities to fix the issues and to save time and more iterations of the block We decide that we will make the changes and fixes and document them all (and provide this to Company X) so they can get it right on the next iteration of the block.

9. January 2015 , after us making changes to the block and fixing it we have a running engine. We pack up, take the car to Florida for half mile testing and drag strip to see how the engine holds up. At the half mile event we see that blowby is significant and crank case pressure gets higher and higher as we run it (max 44 psi boost and it ran 224mph in the half mile).

10. we spend the next 4 months we spend testing and debugging the block. Yes it would worked sort of, the car went fast, but the bore would distort and other issues would pop up. We discussed with Company X that we need a stronger sleeve design than what they had. We contacted a company that specializes in sleeves to come up with something that would work better (The design is totally different than what Company X first used, and remember this because this will come up in the end).

11. Sleeves are designed and sent to Company X for them to incorporate into the block design, along with all the fixes and changes we had to make to the block.

12. We wait a few months and on 12/14/2015 we get 2 billet blocks out of an order of 10 blocks to be made. We can't wait to get more, there is a line for these things! Sadly upon inspection we find problems.. problems that concern us because now there are fundamental issues like holding basic machining tolerances, and other features are still not machined correctly! Again, we start documenting the issues and are preparing to go back to Company X AGAIN to have issues addresses.. when we get wind of people pushing 'same as AMS billet blocks' online to our own customers... then we get pictures and message confirming that these are the same billet block company X was making for us.

13. 12/22/2015 I attempt to make contact with Company X to address this issue.. GOOD LUCK! I spend the until january 5th calling almost every day, leaving messages, ect.. telling them it's very urgent they call me back.

14. 1/5/2016 I finally speak with the owner and I presume 'Billet GTR' member here that made this post. I dare you to tell me I'm lying when i say the following.... I tell him that we've heard that people are soliciting sales of an 'AMS billet block' online and ask him if he knows anything about this. He says yes, we're selling a GTR billet block and it's not the same as our (AMS) block, it's a design they made on their own. I ask him if he thinks it's right that we approached them with the idea, gave them all the parts necessary, design reviews, debugging, testing and now they sell a GTR block. He says it's not the same , (AND THIS IS IMPORTANT), he says that their block will use their original sleeve design as he thinks it's better. He tells me that they have a ton of time and money wrapped up in this (which I agree,and we do also) and he needs to sell blocks (admitting right there that he has time and money in THAT PARTICULAR DESIGN). At this point I see where this is going.. he wants to make money even if the block isn't ready or is right, (not the way AMS operates!) . Seeing the situation I ask him what it would take have exclusivity and he said I would have to buy a lot of blocks from them, which I was planning on doing anyways if the blocks were correct!!! He tells me to email him this request and he'll think about it. I send an email asking him this question just to see what he would say. At this point our mind is made up... we're not working with thieves.

And here is where we arrive today. A block being offered for sale that has been tested, debugged, reviewed, and retested by AMS. EVEN THE SLEEVE DESIGN THAT WE IMPLEMENTED AND THEY SAID THEY WOULDN'T USE!!!! Company X has proof it's their design? Tell me yes and we'll post links up to all the design changes, features, etc we have documented on our end that I can point out in the pictures are used in this 'new version' of their block. And yes we're still sitting on those two blocks we received from Company X that are still not correct.. will you take them back and refund our money?

In the end we made an emotional post, we wanted to let the public know that a product was being offered for sale around our back that we put hard work, money, and time into. And worst of all, it's still not right. Did I make a horrible decision of not having something in writing with Company X? yes! Was making the initial emotional based post and blog worth all this drama? probably no. Does my gut say I just got taken advantage of by a company doing unscrupulous business practices? YES! The things I've witnessed and learned from being in business over the past 15 years really make me question human integrity in general.



Martin Musial,

President, AMS Performance

[Torgus]

AMS are idiots for not singing NDAs and Non-Competes from the get go. "he says he doesn't want to sign anything and to get things complicated" WTF is complicated about that? It's not. I do this $#@! all day long. I guarantee they have a boiler plate document.


That being said they contracted a company to build a single engines for them and are pissed the company is now selling said engines to others. Yeah it sucks they did so much debugging etc but for 3 years they never got confirmation from company X that they would only sell to AMS? Never once got that in writing? Just a handshake from 3 years ago with an owner's sketchy son and never thought to revisit it? It just sounds like they made poor decisions over and over and over while working with this company.


"I ask him what it would take have exclusivity and he said I would have to buy a lot of blocks from them, which I was planning on doing anyways if the blocks were correct!" So after 4 years you finally ask what it takes to get exclusivity? This should have been discussed day 1 and not after all the time and money was spent by both companies. The more time and money company X invested the less likely they are going to want to give you exclusivity so you can make a margin on their product.


If I was company X I wouldn't sign that document either. You want a custom 1 off engine why the $#@! would I make you the exclusive seller of it when you don't even make it and want such a low quantity? Put a PO in for 25 or 50 prepay half of it with NET 30 terms, and I'll give you X number of years of exclusivity.

[Sticky]

AMS are idiots for not singing NDAs and Non-Competes from the get go. "he says he doesn't want to sign anything and to get things complicated" WTF is complicated about that? It's not. I do this $#@! all day long. I guarantee they have a boiler plate document.


That being said they contracted a company to build a single engines for them and are pissed the company is now selling said engines to others. Yeah it sucks they did so much debugging etc but for 3 years they never got confirmation from company X that they would only sell to AMS? Never once got that in writing? Just a handshake from 3 years ago with an owner's sketchy son and never thought to revisit it? It just sounds like they made poor decisions over and over and over while working with this company.


"I ask him what it would take have exclusivity and he said I would have to buy a lot of blocks from them, which I was planning on doing anyways if the blocks were correct!" So after 4 years you finally ask what it takes to get exclusivity? This should have been discussed day 1 and not after all the time and money was spent by both companies. The more time and money company X invested the less likely they are going to want to give you exclusivity so you can make a margin on their product.


If I was company X I wouldn't sign that document either. You want a custom 1 off engine why the $#@! would I make you the exclusive seller of it when you don't even make it and want such a low quantity? Put a PO in for 25 or 50 prepay half of it with NET 30 terms, and I'll give you X number of years of exclusivity.

Yeah AMS comes off looking stupid to me and honestly what did they expect? The machine shop to stop doing work because they are AMS?

Now AMS tries to act like nobody should buy these blocks or work with the machine shop? Lame.

[Sticky]

Those GTR threads are long but I'll ready them as soon as I can. Also contacted @Jimefam but he hasn't logged in here in a while.

With how some people worship AMS because of their Alpha marketing this certainly makes them seem somewhat amateurish and spiteful, doesn't it?

[Steve B. CBR]

I don't think you all are understanding AMS' standpoint here. I'd imagine they're angry about the blocks, money spent, testing, etc. However, also understand, no one knows the name of the machine shop, so when one of those "AMS blocks" fails, the first name mentioned, will be AMS. Basically, what AMS is doing, is trying to take a stand in saying, they have no parts of the "AMS block" that's being sold. To me, that's smart, because now a days all it takes is one negative post, and $#@! goes viral fast.

[Sticky]

I don't think you all are understanding AMS' standpoint here. I'd imagine they're angry about the blocks, money spent, testing, etc.

I think I am but they approached it as we want you to do develop this block and then we want an exclusive. How do we know what they spent? How do we know it isn't the machine shop that spent time and money constantly trying to meet what AMS wanted putting in years of work?

Basically, what AMS is doing, is trying to take a stand in saying, they have no parts of the "AMS block" that's being sold. To me, that's smart, because now a days all it takes is one negative post, and $#@! goes viral fast.

I don't see any block being marketed as AMS that is not from AMS. They seem to be claiming only their blocks are the way to go but if they knew what they were doing why did they have someone else design the block anyway?

I think AMS did not get their exclusive deal and went to someone else to get said deal and now they are trying to bury the machine shop.

If they did it right they would have had an agreement with the shop in writing. They screwed up. Not saying the machine shop does not share any fault here but AMS approached this wrong.

[Torgus]

I think I am but they approached it as we want you to do develop this block and then we want an exclusive. How do we know what they spent? How do we know it isn't the machine shop that spent time and money constantly trying to meet what AMS wanted putting in years of work?



I don't see any block being marketed as AMS that is not from AMS. They seem to be claiming only their blocks are the way to go but if they knew what they were doing why did they have someone else design the block anyway?

I think AMS did not get their exclusive deal and went to someone else to get said deal and now they are trying to bury the machine shop.

If they did it right they would have had an agreement with the shop in writing. They screwed up. Not saying the machine shop does not share any fault here but AMS approached this wrong.

That is how I read it.

[subaru335i]

I think I am but they approached it as we want you to do develop this block and then we want an exclusive. How do we know what they spent? How do we know it isn't the machine shop that spent time and money constantly trying to meet what AMS wanted putting in years of work?



I don't see any block being marketed as AMS that is not from AMS. They seem to be claiming only their blocks are the way to go but if they knew what they were doing why did they have someone else design the block anyway?

I think AMS did not get their exclusive deal and went to someone else to get said deal and now they are trying to bury the machine shop.

If they did it right they would have had an agreement with the shop in writing. They screwed up. Not saying the machine shop does not share any fault here but AMS approached this wrong.

I think you have to read all of the threads to get a better picture of what is going on. I will try to summarize.
Yes AMS was dumb not to sign an NDA or contract stating that the design belongs to them, but that isn't the crux of the issue.
The real problem is that ALLEGEDLY jimefam has now placed an order for 10 billet blocks from this shop (which seems fine legally) BUT AMS has several trusted sources saying jimefam has been calling/PMing people in the GTR community trying to sell them one of these billet blocks by name dropping AMS and citing AMS records as reasons why people should buy this "knockoff" block. Basically behind the scenes marketing them as AMS blocks when AMS doesnt think they are good enough to associate with their hard earned brand recognition.

The other key point is the shop is claiming they are using their own style sleeve with the blocks they will be selling to others (which AMS tested and found was not strong enough for their liking) but from the pictures of the "knockoff" it looks like they are using the revised sleeves among other things (which AMS paid another company to design for them who specializes in sleeves).

Really AMS is pissed about people using their brand to sell these similar competing blocks. I'm no lawyer but it doesn't seem like AMS can really sue anyone but I think they are justified in warning people that these other blocks are not associated with AMS (and may have real problems/weaknesses).
Although I have read that verbal contracts and "handshake" agreements can be upheld in a court but that is for real lawyers to decide.

[Sticky]

BUT AMS has several trusted sources saying jimefam has been calling/PMing people in the GTR community trying to sell them one of these billet blocks by name dropping AMS and citing AMS records as reasons why people should buy this "knockoff" block.

Ok, if so, that's shady.

Proof of this though?

but I think they are justified in warning people that these other blocks are not associated with AMS (and may have real problems/weaknesses).

But you're already saying they have made changes. Using AMS behind the scenes to sell them is BS but AMS saying the blocks are bad without even knowing what has changed is also a bit petty.

Although I have read that verbal contracts and "handshake" agreements can be upheld in a court but that is for real lawyers to decide.

It doesn't take a lawyer to figure out everyone involved looks bad in this.

[benzy89]

Legal issue = trademark infringement. If someone is trying to sell "AMS Billet Blocks" that actually aren't AMS products, it harms AMS and customers. People pay a premium b/c of the trust associated with a brand. So when someone spends over $20k on an "AMS" part that's been advertised to be good for over 2k WHP and backed by their warranty, and then it fails at 1200.... Problem.


They clearly don't care about the NDA/Exclusivity issues. If anything, AMS got lucky since they unnamed manufacturer clearly has an issue with adhering to schedules and getting things right.

[benzy89]

^^Reinforcing what I said, here's a post from Tony Palo of T1:

Unlike Unibomber's experience, when I asked if it had been run and proven, the response was yes, AMS has run it, it's the same block they are using. It was clear that AMS' name has been being used to validate this block to more than one customer.

[Sticky]

Legal issue = trademark infringement. If someone is trying to sell "AMS Billet Blocks" that actually aren't AMS products, it harms AMS and customers.

Once again I don't see anything marketed as an AMS block.

If a guy is going around saying this was a block AMS originally wanted and helped with the design that isn't a lie as that is exactly the truth.

They clearly don't care about the NDA/Exclusivity issues. If anything, AMS got lucky since they unnamed manufacturer clearly has an issue with adhering to schedules and getting things right.

How do you know that? Based on what AMS is saying? Of course AMS is going to spin things in their favor.

I'd like both sides before coming to this conclusion.

[Sticky]

^^Reinforcing what I said, here's a post from Tony Palo of T1:

That actually reinforces what I just wrote... it's not a lie to say AMS was involved as they were at one point by their own admission.

I don't see anyone claiming to sell a block but calling the part an AMS block.

[subaru335i]

Looks like Jimefam is local to me in Atlanta. It seems like he is friends with Justin @ TopSpeed Motorsports who I know from the Subaru world (weak squad on nasioc, he has a badass STI w/ super 99). TopSpeed is just north of ATL and is definitely a legit shop.
Maybe AMS is just overreacting over hearsay that they were using AMS's name to sell these other blocks. So far there hasn't been any proof of trademark infringement or anything and it seems like AMS doesn't have a claim to the IP for the billet block design because they never even had the 3D CAD file for the block.

[subaru335i]

This whole situation reminds me of this: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...eal-GC-s/page2