Response to False and Misleading Claims Made by OE regarding MHP

[MHP LLC]

C&P'd from the MBW thread: http://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w2...l-tuner-7.html

I didn't want to post about this thread instead I would rather it stayed between the customer and OE however OE has dragged us into it by posting on MBW...

Here is how things played out:

1. SGT called wanting a tune on the dyno and came in for a dyno tune.
We do not offer "steady state" tuning requiring emulation, as OE Tuning does not own ETK for ME9.7 emulation.
Dyno tuning is done with dynoing and logging in the case of C63 AMGs.
Between each run changes are made to better the run before.
The vehicle had MHP headers and were removed due to them being to loud before dynoing.
Dynoing was done with factory stock exhaust.

So basically you're saying what you call dyno tuning is not what the rest of the industry calls it. If you aren't making map changes between pulls you aren't dyno tuning, so why even call it that in the first place unless you're already trying to mislead people to get them in the door.

2. The car was strapped on the dyno and run for the baseline, running CA91.

Then the ecu was tuned for CA91 premium pump gas.
There was only ever OE Tuning tunes programmed to ECU, with OE Tuning sig.
Version 1037394899 was never programmed to the ecu as the screenshot suggests. Nor was what is being accused programmed to the ecu.
Tuning is precise changes and there were no mistakes made. OE Tuning is professional about their products and the way each tune is carried out.
Version 1037394899 (ET screenshot SW version), is from a different 2008 model C63. (compare these numbers to verify succession)
The byte sequence from the screen shot was never present in the read or the write by OE Tuning. This software version, 1037394899 is not found on any 2011 models.
This byte sequence does is not present in version 1037506908.
Software version 1037506908, is the software found on many 2011 C63s.

Software version means nothing, all one needs to do is retain the immobilizer data and the car will run with a different firmware version. That said it won't run perfectly (this is why we don't clone files) as Steve posted about his experiences with the OE tune.

1) Cutting out on highway with his family in the car multiple times.

2) Jerkiness and hesitation as well as the trans grabbing the wrong gear at part throttle acceleration.

3) Massive audible detonation (13.8:1 AF with over 30 degrees WOT timing at 100% load will do that on 91 octane, let alone 93 or even 94 octane).

Hacker thieves do this all the time, I see it on a daily basis, most of the time it's to "fix" the cloned file on the ECU presently.

[MHP LLC]

3. The method required to tune a Bosch ME9.7 ecu does require the ecu be opened and a probe be in contact with pads on the circuit board for reading and writing to be successful.

The probe that did not require any soldering was damaged at the time, so an alternate tool that required tracks to be soldered to the ecu for communication was used. This is an accepted method of tuning.
Regularly soldering is not needed with these ecus, but there are many methods to get th e same result.
To get a clean "bead" of solder, "flux" is used. Flux is a yellow liquid that ensures solder only "stick" to metalic pads. Flux ensures no "shot circuits" or "bridged connections". Flux does not cause "shot circuits" or "bridged connections' and is safe and used while soldering to circuit boards. After the heat of the soldering iron has been applied to the area applied with flux, the alcohol content in the flux evaporates leaving a brown "honey like" flux.
The flux is routinely cleaned off after use and it does not look like the flux was cleaned off in this particular case.
Leaving flux on a circuit board has never been seen to cause issues.

Another flat out lie. I cleaned all the extra solder and flux off the board and guess what, the ECU board was still burnt due to oversoldering. You are NOT looking at flux, no chance.

Thank you for confirming what I've already known, you used a CMD with BDM inferface but didn't use a pogo pin so you had to solder all connections to the pads. In doing so BMD pads 3,5, and 7 were burned and grounding out due to excessive soldering and heat. Bridge was also smoked, these hardware errors only come at the hands of those that have not received proper training in handling ECUs. I had to fix the ECU hardware myself cannabalizing other ME9.7s to fix Steve's ECU. If I see another come through the door looking as badly I will return it to the owner as is and have them purchase a new ECU, too much time spent fixing others mistakes and this still leaves the customer in a Warranty Denial position. The hardware has so clealry been damaged that one look at the ECU by any MB dealer nationwide and he can kiss his warranty goodbye. Now factor in the race gas (even for race gas it was too aggressive) tune that Oliver stepped forward and claimed to be his own and you have a recipe for disaster. Steve still needs to do a compression test and check plugs at the very least to verify the race gas tune on 91 octane didn't harm the engine.

4. After the fuel level was run low on the dyno (almost empty tank), the OP asked if we could put MS109 race gasoline in the car to see the results.

MS109 was poured into the gas tank and the results are in the attached dynograph.
MS109 was run using the CA91 pump gas tune.
As ignition additive adaption timing was adjusted, the correct amount of ignition advance would be added in when a higher octane race gas is used. The ECU can determine gasoline quality through adaptation processes.
This is why the OE Tuning pump gas tune gets better results at the track when comparing results run with Premium pump gas and High octane Race gas.
Please take note of Air/Fuel ratio as there are no signs of any "lean" running condition.
There was never any knock seen while dynoing the vehicle.

First all tuners worth their salt use factory timing maps for 91 octane tunes. It's fact, you can't deny it. The fact that Steve's car gained 15hp+ dumping MS109 into it tells me something about the timing curve, as in, it wasn't factory stock as a 91 file should be. A 93 octane MHP tune will gain 8-10rw SAE on the dyno on MS109, for a 91 tune to gain more would mean even more timing was added.


I'm not sure where you went to tuning school, that's right you didn't because you don't actually tune, you just read and write files like I do--only I don't claim otherwise--but the air fuels from Steve's independant dynos display exactly how dangerously lean the A/Fs are regardless of timing. They are unacceptably lean for any form of pump gas and again even for race gas are "aggressive". I think this just goes to highlight why dyno'ing at the tuners place of business is useless as dynos are so easily manipulated.

[MHP LLC]

5. The OP said he would be getting independent dynoing, which was encouraged by OE Tuning.

After the independent dyno results were run, the OP contacted OE Tuning reporting the "lean" fuel mixture seen on the dyno.
OE Tuning requested dynographs to support this.
As this was not what was seen on OE Tuning's dyno, the question was asked if perhaps the wideband O2 sensor at the other dyno shop could have been fouled.
The option to come in for a run on OE Tuning's dyno to check if indeed this is the case was an option given to the OP.
There was never any mention of shut offs, knocking or anything other than the "lean mixture" seen on the dyno as the concern.
Parts can go bad from time to time, and it was very unlikely a brand new 2011 C63 would have any issues with the O2 sensors on the vehicle, unless the possibility of being fouled by running different fuels.

You and Steve disagree here. Steve claims to have called and/or emailed multiple times that he was distressed about the A/Fs he saw on the independant dyno and that you were unwilling to make any changes and told him your equipment was fine which is obviously not the case: Please reference the dyno above.

6. The option to come in for verification of the said fuel mixture was never taken and this is where the communication with the OP ceased.

It was thought that perhaps all was well and resolved at this time, as there was no further communication to support any issues.

If you ignore someone for so long what do you think happens next?

MHP glues epoxy to the circuit board to avoid thier tunes being read out. OE Tuning does not approve of this practice. Many MHP customers have had OE Tuning retune thier ecu once the "buy another ecu" bomb is dropped for a reflash/retune as the option from Andy/MHP. A shot of this will be provided.
MHP is a banned user on this forum that uses the "troll" accounts "JH Davis" and "R Stevens" to get thier message accross. Can mnoderators please look into this?
Did MHP edit and rename this screenshot to wrongly accuse OE Tuning of something which OE Tuning did not do? Yes, they did. Is this the weak explaination MHP and Andy give the customer once dyno numbers comparing OE and MHP tunes, result in OE Tuning make higher numbers on pump gas? Yes, it is. It is very obvious that after the MHP numbers were lower than promised, the lies started to explain why their power numbers are so. "Blame it on another tuner with a higher octane tune". Also there is nothing in the information provided in the OP's screenshot to display VIN or even if it was a tune for high octane. More than likely it was taken from an Evotech tune from "09". MHP V1 tunes were supplied by Evotech through B&G Chrysler and now MHP use reputable German tuner Techtec for V3 tuning. The same tune is available for cheaper through other resellers like Eurotec.
MHP, time to supply the information in support of your accusations or get of this forum. Jealousy has no place in the tuning business and is an immature approach at best.
Anyone wanting an explaination of byte comparisons and software version comparisons, please email me. [email protected]

This all sounds like frustration because you can't get out of what you've done to Steve's ECU nor prove otherwise.

Yes we at MHP use a special epoxy to cover the BDM pads so theives/hacks can't get to the files as easily. This is unfortunately necessary because both BDM and CMD encryption are incredibly weak. Here's the rub: With the correct solvent and tools I can remove my epoxy in 15-45 minutes depending on how much I use. Others that don't have the correct solvent/tools cannot which is the point. So if you're a legit customer and just want the best tuning, you have nothing to fear. If a customer were ever to send back the ECU to go back to stock (has never happened to date) I can remove all traces of the epoxy (unlike the burnt ecu hardware in Steve's car) in 2-3hrs tops. I've practiced as much on spare ECUs so I know this to be true.

We never promised Steve HP/TQ numbers on the dyno. Anyone that knows me knows I hate to quote dyno numbers especially from a dyno I've never seen in another state on the other side of the country. The car is only going to make X amount of power due to the limited amount of airflow on the dyno. What you and the other junior tuners don't seem to understand is that these cars are calibrated both by the factory and by us with fans capable of blowing a sustained 180mph (the kind of airflow you see in 1:1, 5th gear at redline which cannot be replicated in the U.S.). So it follows I could care much less about dyno results than track or VBox results which allow for real world airflow. Makes all the difference in the world especially with a large displacement N/A engine.

Please don't talk to me about jealousy or misinformation because if you were telling the truth you'd be communicating with me via atty right now instead of posting on an internet messageboard. While it may have taken you and your 11th grade education hours to formulate the "post" above it took me all of 10 minutes to disspell whatever myths you wanted to propagate. The bottom line is that you toasted Steve's ECU as evidenced by the pics, the ecu could not even be read out when I initially got it, and the file that came off the ECU was not OE nor was it even for 91 octane--meaning it's not what the customer paid for. Now the customer has a destroyed ECU that functions but will not pass a dealer warranty test. You actually lucked out in all of this as there is no doubt in my mind that with additional miles Steve's motor would have blown with the race gas tune on the ECU. No doubt.

Since 3/09 MHP has partnered with Techtec (I tell my customers this openly along with others, you aren't breaking news to anyone that I talk to) with great success. As even our competitors know Techtec is the first to hack and remap new Euro ECUs. We have the best files and best support network in the world. Meaning I don't have to use Oliver's/Evotech's files, I have better remapping at hand thank you.

All files other than for stock vehicles (ie LT Header, Ported Head, Header/Catback, etc) are proprietary to MHP, they are not simply Techtec files. By all means call Eurotek (tek not tec) and speak with Phil, we are good friends and have each others backs especially in situations like this.

I hope you enjoy the next 3 mos because after that I don't think there will be much of a market left for you. Don't say I didn't give you advance notice.

Good luck and feel free to keep going with this as long as you want. You're digging deeper everytime you post. Lastly, I will glady sacrifice 15hp to ensure my customers motor doesn't give up any durability, longevity due to software tuning. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Remember that.

[MHP LLC]

Additionally Jeremy is still rocking the incorrect quote in his sig:

VBOX 60-130 - 8.19s (fastest C63 non-NOS)

Keith is and has been quicker, we've addressed this before.

More BS from OE regarding a race with a MHP S2 car (we have one S2 car in CA and this was not it), despite the other owner (with K2 tune and MHP LTs) claiming he actually won the race:





Looks like more of the same from the OE camp, glad someone finally posted about it. It also seems obvious Jeremy thinks he can do no wrong, no matter what he does LOL.

[MHP LLC]

Here is a pic of one of the ECU's I've done and what my epoxy looks like. I have no idea what pictures Jeremy posted on MBW as I can't see them so I wanted to post my own:



Like I said, if you're a legit customer it's not a problem you'll ever have to worry about, if you're trying to steal IP then it's going to ruin your day.

Notice I don't glue around the board, just over the BDM pads. If Jeremy's pics show a bunch of orange RTV everywhere that was Dave Kasper's work, which is why we stopped working together in 2/2009--well one of the reasons.

[oldgixxer]

Andy 2 things:
1-contrary to what Jeremy says flux is indeed corrosive,it chemically cleans the pieces that are about to be soldered to ensure a good bonding. If you leave it on&dont wipe it off it gets funky. I use flux everyday&have for the last 22years as a plumber so I kinda know

2-When you use any oxygenated fuel(VP MS109,Q16,NRX-01,MR12 etc etc) to get the most benefit you add fuel to your tune;if you dont your just wasting $25-30ga race fuel dumping it in your tank..why is OE's tune running lean? Wouldnt a proper oxygenated race gas file cause it to run extra rich if it was used with pump gas(non-oxygenated)?

[OE Tuning]

Misleading claims by OE Tuning, lol. That is really rich! How is it that you, MHP/Andy can send a false screenshot from an old C63 software version with your old tuners sig and expect it to stick when comparing it to a new 2011 software version? You are out of your league and skill set here. Either give proof to back your accusations or go hide somewhere. Put out or shut up!
You don't know tuning, code or ecus, so, leave the explaining to the professionals. Any other tuner wanting these files for comparison, please email me.
MHP is a joke! You have nothing that is why you have to re-hash old BS.

[MHP LLC]

Misleading claims by OE Tuning, lol. That is really rich! How is it that you, MHP/Andy can send a false screenshot from an old C63 software version with your old tuners sig and expect it to stick when comparing it to a new 2011 software version? You are out of your league and skill set here. Either give proof to back your accusations or go hide somewhere. Put out or shut up!
You don't know tuning, code or ecus, so, leave the explaining to the professionals. Any other tuner wanting these files for comparison, please email me.
MHP is a joke! You have nothing that is why you have to re-hash old BS.

I'm simply posting facts in your joke of a response on MBW. As I have posted numerous times already. Software version numbers mean NOTHING. I've explained why above so please take the time to read before responding again. Using the incorrect firmware version would also explain some of the issues Steve was having with "your" tune ie engine cutting out on highway, etc. That's typical from cloned files.

Feel free to ask Oliver himself publicly, MHP has never worked with Evotech.

The first pic sent to Steve contains his VIN showing the Evotech file you put on his ECU. His choice not to post, can't blame him especially after what you did to the ECU hardware.

You have nothing but your fanboys to protect you, no facts, no evidence mitigating your actions, sorry but you lose again.

Let's not forget you're a plumber and I work with Pascal/Techtec everyday. I have no need to go elsewhere for anything as we already have the best in-house.

3 mos and counting. Tick tock.

[Sticky]

Guys, don't need this.

Fighting among vendors is against the rules here.

Same team, common enemy, quit it.

[MHP LLC]

Andy 2 things:
1-contrary to what Jeremy says flux is indeed corrosive,it chemically cleans the pieces that are about to be soldered to ensure a good bonding. If you leave it on&dont wipe it off it gets funky. I use flux everyday&have for the last 22years as a plumber so I kinda know

2-When you use any oxygenated fuel(VP MS109,Q16,NRX-01,MR12 etc etc) to get the most benefit you add fuel to your tune;if you dont your just wasting $25-30ga race fuel dumping it in your tank..why is OE's tune running lean? Wouldnt a proper oxygenated race gas file cause it to run extra rich if it was used with pump gas(non-oxygenated)?

Rob,

I work with flux everyday as well and agree. I worked on this ecu for 2 days fixing it. It was burnt, that pads 3,5,7 weren't grounded to the board due to excessive heat/solder and again the bridge was toast.

I have no idea about how the MS109 was handled if it was just dumped in on the dyno or if the car was drained/filled or driven till empty then added and put 50 miles on it, etc.

[MHP LLC]

Guys, don't need this.

Fighting among vendors is against the rules here.

Same team, common enemy, quit it.

As stated in the OP I didn't want to make this post but after OE's response including making multiple false statements about MHP and/or its products felt it necessary to clear the air publicly.

I'll be glad to stop posting/correcting if Jeremy does the same on both forums.

Thanks

[MHP LLC]

Last post unless OE posts again:

We both know if you were serious about this your atty would be talking to my atty instead of this pathetic public plea of innocence. So if you're serious serve me and I'll be glad to countersue and bury you with the truth.

/end thread unless you want to keep going

[oldgixxer]

Rob,

I work with flux everyday as well. I worked on this ecu for 2 days fixing it so please don't try and tell me it wasn't burnt, that pads 3,5,7 weren't grounded to the board due to excessive heat/solder and that the bridge wasn't burned.
.

Andy I think you took my post the wrong way,I was just saying that flux is corrosive

[Sticky]

As stated in the OP I didn't want to make this post but after OE's response including making multiple false statements about MHP and/or its products felt it necessary to clear the air publicly.

I'll be glad to stop posting/correcting if Jeremy does the same on both forums.

Thanks

Andy, what Jeremy does on other forums is irrelevant. Don't want to drag that crap into here.

We have our own rules and you two fighting is simply bad for the forum.

Come on guys, pick up a phone. /thread