Feeding the Addiction (Dyno Progress)

[The Ghost]

Following the short-lived stock frame WR on VTT 2+ 20T twins (LINK), I went ahead and changed setups, seeking even more power. This time I went with the Ventura Motorsports top mount kit with 6466 G2.

Setup:

• N54, FBO, 6MT (Spec 3+)
• VM single turbo kit, PTE 6466 G2
• JB4 G5, back-end flash (MHD)
• BMS Port Injection kit
• Split Second injector controller (AIC1-G4H)
• Fuel-it Stage 3 dual LPFPs
• e85

Going from stock frames, I was worried about lag, however during normal driving, it feels like a stock car in terms or part throttle torque. There are some conditions where rpms are below 3k where you need to downshift, such as going 60mph in 6th gear. Outside of this, the drivability of this kit is a non-event. Spool on the street is quick, and once it comes on it just never let's up. I don't notice lag between gears on a multi-gear pull.

The craftsmanship on the kit is top notch! I've worked with a couple kits and this one is my fav. There is literally NO room for error with kits on this car. Customer service from VM (Payam) was ridiculous. Service before the sale was far better than most give after the sale. He really helped work through any questions I had.

Anyway, I just an a quick hour on the dyno, so I loaded up some base maps and had it. At 23psi (map 4), it made 650whp. Going to 26.xpsi jump over the 700whp mark! Final numbers were 719whp @ ~26-27psi.

Attached are some pictures and data. I've plotted today's last run against my kill mode 20T twins, as well as my all-out stock turbo runs.

http://datazap.me/u/ghost/dyno-9-int...-29&solo=3-4-9

A few observations:

• I'm out of fuel at this power level, as HPFP and LPFP are diving. Fortunately, I have a Fuel-it FPR and feed/return line kit here ready to install. I hope to get this in and back on the dyno in the coming weeks.
• My PWM (WGDC) is much higher than expected at this low a boost level. Previously, a value of 25 was good for 23 psi where today it requires 45. I'll do another boost leak test and see if I find a problem.
• AFR measured at the tailpipe one the dyno reads a good 0.5 point lower than measured at the front O2. Because of that, I richened the map by 0.5 (target 11.9:1, measured 12.4:1 on the external WB) and gained 20whp throughout most of the powerband. I suspect the tailpipe sniffer is more accurate and that I was too lean before.
• I didn't spend any time on spool or timing. I'm sure the spool can be improved; I already make 20psi at 3600 rpms on the street as-is plus have BMS anti-lag installed.
• I have zero traction on the street now (PSS, LSD, lockdown, etc.)

More to come.

[Terry@BMS]

Nice choice on the turbo kit. I'd strongly suggest throwing an anti-lag setup on it. Absolute must have for roll racing!

On the log low pressure looks OK, so you just need to add more fuel via the port injection kit. Using our latest PI map?

[The Ghost]

Nice choice on the turbo kit. I'd strongly suggest throwing an anti-lag setup on it. Absolute must have for roll racing!

You missed the plug I gave you. I have it and it works well!

Regarding PI map, No, I'm still on the old PI map from the early spring when this was new. I didn't know if your new maps were for the AIC6 not the 4 that I have.

[Terry@BMS]

Ah they are for the AIC6. You could migrate them over to the AIC4. Basically, it needs more PI fuel. The AIC4 only goes up to 26psi IIRC so it might be slightly annoying for what you're trying to do. Did we sell you the AIC4? I can discount an AIC6 for you if you need a quick upgrade.

[Payam@BMS]

These results are awesome!! Makes me want to go back to my 6466 just for that power band and low end torque. With almost the same psi you're making 40whp more than the VTT2+. That is only at 26 psi too, which is probably barely even in the efficiency range for this turbo.

As Terry said, LPFP looks good while the HPFP is falling. I'm sure you can crank out more power if you let the PI do more work. This is still amazing without a returnless system. 800whp looks to be right around the corner man! Thanks for the kind words and supporting us!

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

Awesome results man, cool you can test the differences between set ups. I see you gave up on the "other" kit, prob a good idea. The VM kit is in my opinion the best Top Mount ST kit for the N54 at the moment. Keep us posted as you get it dialed in!

[Artsoasis]

I will be killed lol.

[Mrpikolo]

Looks good!

A weird question: Why do most people end up using the heat wrap, instead of a high end coating? Is it the material used? From what I remember reading, the top of the line coatings do a much better job than the wrap. I could be wrong.

[Ericbh77]

Ceramic coating keeps the heat inside the metal and allowing it to escape causing fatigue and eventually lead to cracking.

[The Ghost]

Looks good!

A weird question: Why do most people end up using the heat wrap, instead of a high end coating? Is it the material used? From what I remember reading, the top of the line coatings do a much better job than the wrap. I could be wrong.

For me, it was the wait. It was quicker to wrap and paint it than send out for coating. Doing both would be ideal IMO.

There is so much heat with the top mount setup, any extra cooling would be good. The wrap and turbo blanket do a good job.

[Ericbh77]

Yes but if you do choose to wrap and coat, be sure ur manifold is made of schedule 10 or better or it WILL crack from the heat eventually. Although it keeps the heat off the plastic components on the engine, it also will raise the iat temps pre fmic. But with a top mount you really don't have many alternatives.

[Mrpikolo]

For me, it was the wait. It was quicker to wrap and paint it than send out for coating. Doing both would be ideal IMO.

There is so much heat with the top mount setup, any extra cooling would be good. The wrap and turbo blanket do a good job.

Good to know it works well!

Yes but if you do choose to wrap and coat, be sure ur manifold is made of schedule 10 or better or it WILL crack from the heat eventually. Although it keeps the heat off the plastic components on the engine, it also will raise the iat temps pre fmic. But with a top mount you really don't have many alternatives.

The wraps tend to keep moisture in and the coating tends increase thermal expansion right?

Are the compressor output temps really effected that much? I would think it would actually help them. I always thought the insulation of the turbine keeps the heat/energy in, increasing spool characteristics. While the insulation in the turbine outlet/downpipe helps to pull the exhaust out. Both of which increases efficiency which should lower compressor outlet temps? Legit question, as I am not completely educated on these thermal dynamics.

[BoostDr]

Congrats on the numbers! Excited to see it as it gets dialed in! Nice to see the compared dynes as well, amazing to see the numbers the platform is putting down

[Sered]

This is awesome. Can't wait until my setup arrives. My new E90 is ready and waiting. This is pretty much the exact same setup that I'll be running (including fpr and return line)

[alpin54]

Good to know it works well!



The wraps tend to keep moisture in and the coating tends increase thermal expansion right?

Are the compressor output temps really effected that much? I would think it would actually help them. I always thought the insulation of the turbine keeps the heat/energy in, increasing spool characteristics. While the insulation in the turbine outlet/downpipe helps to pull the exhaust out. Both of which increases efficiency which should lower compressor outlet temps? Legit question, as I am not completely educated on these thermal dynamics.

I did a bunch of research myself on this when I was choosing which one I wanted on my 6467 car. At first I wanted to do wrap because the price and the fact I could do it in my garage. I ended up with ceramic coating for a couple reasons. The wrap works, but like you mentioned it can retain moisture and cause rust. Wraps do excellent work for removing heat from the engine bay, but because the pipe can no longer radiate heat into its surroundings, the wrap traps this heat in the pipe itself and the material of the pipe is heated further. Eventually this will cause a cracked header or failure of the pipe wall entirely. Not to mention with 02 sensor issues that heat will leach into the sensors and I imagine it could cause problems with sensor life.

Ceramic coating on the other hand if done properly should coat both the inside and the outside pipe walls. This benefits by reflecting the heat back into the air stream and keeping the heat off the pipe all together. So not only are you preventing rust, but the pipe doesn't even see the heat that it would if it had nothing installed at all. This should prevent cracking as well.

The last part about improving spool is true to an extent. PV=nRT would be your formula to figure it out. (Pressure*Volume = n(amount of gas)*R(a constant)*T(Temp)). With that said say your exhaust gas temp is 450 degrees Celsius (842F). Lets say by the time the gas reaches the turbo, the pipe consumes 200 degrees Celsius (puts us at 250 Celsius (482F). Now if we keep say 100 degrees Celsius in the gas with coating, we are at 350 C (662F). Now the math comes to (350+273)/(250+273)= (623)/(523)= about 19% difference in gas volume provided pressure stays the same. In the same size runners this will increase the velocity some too as the gas will stay more expanded. Not saying by any means this is a realistic example, but it gets the idea across.

[idratherbesurfing]

My part list is very similar to yours and you are saying with port injection and the stage 3 low-pressure fuel pump it doesn't keep up? If you are getting other parts to help supply the fuel can you please explain it all to me, I'm learning all this new stuff as I go along. Luckily I haven't received all of my parts yet so if I need to get anything else I can still order it and install everything at once

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

On 100% E85 the stage 3 pump is not good for much over 700-750WHP. The fittings, and lines are too small, its not the pumps, those walbros are good for much more, but the way the pumps, and plumbed, and the lines to the front of the car are going to fall flat at around those levels.

[idratherbesurfing]

On 100% E85 the stage 3 pump is not good for much over 700-750WHP. The fittings, and lines are too small, its not the pumps, those walbros are good for much more, but the way the pumps, and plumbed, and the lines to the front of the car are going to fall flat at around those levels.

Well would fuel-it's new port injection/fuel line upgrades do the trick? I planned on getting the new lines anyway and fpr.

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

Well would fuel-it's new port injection/fuel line upgrades do the trick? I planned on getting the new lines anyway and fpr.

In my opinion no. The way the fittings screw onto the pumps, and the size of the fittings themselves 5/16's bundys are going to cap out around those levels, you may be able to get a little more, but you always want to build a fuel system that has 100-200WHP capability over what you are looking for. All it takes is one fuel pressure drop during a high boost pull to break the motor. The Stage 3 offering is honestly awesome for around 700-750WHP or so, after that I personally do not think it has enough capacity. The radium double pump Surge tank Motiv is offering will offer plenty of fuel if plumbed right, but its mounted externally, and its not exactly tiny, trunk mounting is your best best, you should be able to hide it nicely in spare tire area.

[pobudz]

Anyone notice this?

http://www.motivmotorsport.com/produ...e-tank-radium/

Time for 17 rears and Mickeys!

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

Anyone notice this?

http://www.motivmotorsport.com/produ...e-tank-radium/

Time for 17 rears and Mickeys!

? haha seriously? Glance about 2 inches above your post

[idratherbesurfing]

In my opinion no. The way the fittings screw onto the pumps, and the size of the fittings themselves 5/16's bundys are going to cap out around those levels, you may be able to get a little more, but you always want to build a fuel system that has 100-200WHP capability over what you are looking for. All it takes is one fuel pressure drop during a high boost pull to break the motor. The Stage 3 offering is honestly awesome for around 700-750WHP or so, after that I personally do not think it has enough capacity. The radium double pump Surge tank Motiv is offering will offer plenty of fuel if plumbed right, but its mounted externally, and its not exactly tiny, trunk mounting is your best best, you should be able to hide it nicely in spare tire area.

Well the stage 3 will have to do for now...another 1500 bucks aint working right now. But definitely need that kit!

[Tony@VargasTurboTech]

Confused. $1500? You can get Walbro 450's on amazon for around $100 each, and the surge tank is $599 I think. That's actually less than the stage 3 set up. I see you posting everywhere about your plans to go full drag set up, on your wheels, and tires, crazy with the build, power numbers etc, but you are going to skimp on the fuel system, that is prob the worst thing you could do. Did you already buy the stage 3? I can imagine it would be pretty easy to sell it, and get a proper set up. If you were going for 750WHP I would say by all means use the stage 3, but everything I see you post states youu are going for more. Do it right the first time. Its not glamous so no one likes to spend money on it, but ask any professional engine builder or motorsports tech. One of the most important parts of any vehicle builds is the fuel system.

[idratherbesurfing]

Confused. $1500? You can get Walbro 450's on amazon for around $100 each, and the surge tank is $599 I think. That's actually less than the stage 3 set up. I see you posting everywhere about your plans to go full drag set up, on your wheels, and tires, crazy with the build, power numbers etc, but you are going to skimp on the fuel system, that is prob the worst thing you could do. Did you already buy the stage 3? I can imagine it would be pretty easy to sell it, and get a proper set up. If you were going for 750WHP I would say by all means use the stage 3, but everything I see you post states youu are going for more. Do it right the first time. Its not glamous so no one likes to spend money on it, but ask any professional engine builder or motorsports tech. One of the most important parts of any vehicle builds is the fuel system.

Website says 1500 for full kit look it up. And I will not push my fuel system to the limit with whatever I am using I will keep it in a safe zone. I ordered a lot more parts then I plan on getting and it added up very quick haha

[The Ghost]

My part list is very similar to yours and you are saying with port injection and the stage 3 low-pressure fuel pump it doesn't keep up? If you are getting other parts to help supply the fuel can you please explain it all to me, I'm learning all this new stuff as I go along. Luckily I haven't received all of my parts yet so if I need to get anything else I can still order it and install everything at once

It does, but is close to the limit. Since this post, I've upgraded to full return/FPR and upgraded feed and return lines. I've dynod up to 730whp and run 3-4psi than that on the street and fuel pressure has held.

Ill post the recent dynos and overlays shortly.