What's your opinion of the "high-end" German DIESEL tuning boxes? Are they worth the money?

[stevehecht]

I don't know how much extra power this configuration can muster, but these guys seem to play it pretty conservative, maybe because of the DME/IPW concern you've raised. They repeatedly emphasize how they're not running the engine beyond normal ECU parameters. This is not a dyno, but it will give you an idea of what the KS box now produces for the N47d20 (320d/328d): http://www.kelleners-sport.de/images...1220021_en.pdf

I do plan on doing before/after dyno runs this spring. Do you have any dyno shops in the Boston area that you'd recommend?

Finally got one!

I reviewed the Hartge 320d install guide and it appears they are biasing the IPW rather than attenuating the fuel mass sensor. Unfortunately I can't find any dynojet runs so it's difficult to determine if that is allowing more power than altering the fuel mass sensor, but it theoretically may be. Since the DME is not really aware of the true IPW you get around one of the nannies. On the other hand safety becomes more of a concern as the DME is not directly in control of IPW. And of course, more power, higher EGT, more wear, so there is never really a free lunch here.

We've not done much F series diesel testing/tuning yet but I think the cars are starting to turn up more here and there. At some point we'll borrow/buy one and do some dyno testing. If we're able to safely make more power using a direct injector bias rather than a simple fuel mass bias I'm not opposed to it. It's just four more wires. We'd probably switch it over to a CANbus system at the same time allowing reading of every sensor, not just the ones physically connected to. Then maybe we can then claim "superiority" and charge 3x as much.

Since you're very interested in F series diesel tuning I'd say throw one of these on your car, do some before and after dyno runs, datalog some data, and share your experiences with it.

[Terry@BMS]

I don't know how much extra power this configuration can muster, but these guys seem to play it pretty conservative, maybe because of the DME/IPW concern you've raised. They repeatedly emphasize how they're not running the engine beyond normal ECU parameters. This is not a dyno, but it will give you an idea of what the KS box now produces for the N47d20 (320d/328d): http://www.kelleners-sport.de/images...1220021_en.pdf

I do plan on doing before/after dyno runs this spring. Do you have any dyno shops in the Boston area that you'd recommend?

If the gains are conservative then I don't see any good reason to implement it that way vs. fuel mass attenuation and lots of reasons not too. But, I'm also biased towards the approach we took during our development.

The chart isn't overly useful as its not a true dynojet chart. Plus it's always best to see 3rd party "real world" customer testing. Any dynojet brand dyno will do so just track one down in your area. When you do the testing maybe I'll shoot a JBD over for you to borrow just so we can see where it stands in comparison.

[stevehecht]

Thanks, Terry. I found several Dynojet dynamometer centers in my area. I'll let you know when I'm ready to roll and maybe you can send a JBD loaner to me.

If the gains are conservative then I don't see any good reason to implement it that way vs. fuel mass attenuation and lots of reasons not too.

Besides the added cost of the module, I don't understand why you say there are "lots of reasons not to" use one of the TBs we've been discussing--especially when you said that you might consider implementing a similar system (with CANbus) at BMS. Why not charge more--it would definitely be worth it!

Also, I'm not so sure that the direct injector input totally by-passes the DME. I know it seems it's got to be one or the other, but I'd be surprised if these tuners went in that direction. I'll shoot an email their way and see if I can get a response about that. We might be moving into the realm of proprietary information here, I don't know.

[Terry@BMS]

Thanks, Terry. I found several Dynojet dynamometer centers in my area. I'll let you know when I'm ready to roll and maybe you can send a JBD loaner to me.



Besides the added cost of the module, I don't understand why you say there are "lots of reasons not to" use one of the TBs we've been discussing--especially when you said that you might consider implementing a similar system (with CANbus) at BMS. Why not charge more--it would definitely be worth it!

Also, I'm not so sure that the direct injector input totally by-passes the DME. I know it seems it's got to be one or the other, but I'd be surprised if these tuners went in that direction. I'll shoot an email their way and see if I can get a response about that. We might be moving into the realm of proprietary information here, I don't know.

The way injector IPW modification is done is the signal is read and then retransmitted with a slightly higher duty cycle as a function of an internal algorithm . When designing a tuning system you need to fully evaluate the benefits and risks of any given signal change at the signal level. e.g. what can go wrong if the signal is not sent as intended, or the internal algorithm used to modify the signal does not react as intended to a specific data set. Most of that analysis is proprietary. But I will tell you there are a lot more potentially "bad" things that can crop up on the direct IPW adjustment side of things than the fuel mass side of things. Because when altering the fuel mass the DME remains fully in charge of every drop of fuel injected. So you have the added benefit of the DME's safety logic in play limiting the damage that can be done by a bad signal transmission.

[stevehecht]

Fascinating. I hope other people are reading this thread because I know I'm learning a helluva lot here. I will use the information in this description to frame my question to "the Germans". If I manage to pry anything out of them on this IPM issue I'll let you know via PM and here. Thanks again.

[dblrguy]

I don't have a D but enjoyed the thread. Rep shared, sorry terry have to spread.


~Nate

[stevehecht]

hey Terry,

I don't think this reply is wholly satisfactory for your purposes, but this is what I asked and this is what he replied:


Me: "Is the KS-20 manipulation of the main injection time (Injection Pulse Width=IPW) still under the ultimate control of the cars's ECU (DME)? Will the ECU still be able to produce a normal pulse width even if there is a bad signal coming from a malfunction in the tuning box? A bad signal going to the injectors can cause a great deal of harm inside the engine."


KS: "Regarding the power increase: we influence the injection time and pressure. The Kelleners module works under influence of the original ECU what means if there is any problem on the engine the power increase is disabled (what it is not the case for cheaper devices). But at the same time if it is any problem with the module itself the car doesn’t run properly anymore. In this case you would have to remove the module in order to have the stock setup again. Then we would have to check the hardware of the module itself but this case is very very rare."

[Puerto Rican 335d]

wow Im glad i got a RENNtech Flash, Car has been running great for over two years and NO CODES whatsover, Increase hp from 230 OEM to 318 whp and eventually went up to 327 whp and 452 wtq that includes the WAGNER IC, now I hvae a down pipe and 3" exhaust havent done the dyno but hopefully next few weeks

[breacher]

I wonder if any of the piggy-backs can take into account for upgraded IC, and or any DPF/EGR deletes? or are these a must ECU-FLASH in order to accomplish such? if a JBD and upgraded IC works, that may be a better and simpler way to go. Best bang for the buck.
I see Puerto Rican 335d has done a lot, any Dyno results by now? Thanks
Hmm, what else can be done to the E70 US spec'd diesel? I know the 335d has many more options. wonder why?

[Sticky]

I wonder if any of the piggy-backs can take into account for upgraded IC, and or any DPF/EGR deletes? or are these a must ECU-FLASH in order to accomplish such?

I mean guys run piggybacks with these mods in the N54 world all the time.